Hi all,
In another Comment stream, Larry Kall and Ed black said:
LARRY KALL said...
Ed,
Your question about Stop signs is most interesting. When we completed putting transponders on the 40 cars last Thursday there was slightly more than a hour left on the sheriffs time ( they have to be hired for at least 3 hours).
I then requested that he patrol the village and pay special attention to the stops signs. His next question was "Are the stop signs approved by Palm Beach County".
I told him that I did know that the two stop signs at both 4 corners are approved stop signs. (ADMIN. Note; The Evidence please?)
The sheriff then told me he could therefore issue tickets at those locations.
How many other stop signs in the village are "approved stop signs" I do not know. I was also informed that the red "no turn on red sign by the east gate is NOT AN APPROVED SIGN but the one hanging on the traffic light pole with the black letters "no turn on red" was approved. I know that there are many other Stop signs in the village that probably were never approved by the county.
I do know that there are many areas in the village where stop signs are not only necessary but vital.It appears that many communities like ours just goes out and buy stop signs and just put them up.
I will therefore suggest to the new Safety Committee that this is a matter that they should consider looking into.
I know nothing about the Hastings edict but will look into it.
The presidents of the Somerset Area buildings will meet, will discuss the tennis court matter, and will make a decision. While we have little control on what goes on inside the tennis courts we do have control on what goes on our properties and our portions of the roads and parking areas.
Apr 15, 2008 9:24:00 PM
edeveblack said...
Larry,
The issue of enforcement of stop signs is that we are a private community and only the perimeter roads STOP signs are county dictates, and accordingly enforceable. (ADMIN. Note; The Evidence please?)
If you own a dirt road and decide the speed limit entering your property, the authorities CAN NOT enforce private speed limit signs even when they appear like those the that State or County place for the safety of the public.
The whole issue of our being forced into situations when no vote or poll was taken, and no information of a decision that UCO makes, is just a proof of the need for Professional Management to stop this inappropriate behavior.
Stop signs that are unenforceable only encourage everyone to “IGNORE ALL STOP AND NO TURN ON RED SIGNS". Aren’t we encouraging drivers to disregard the many Stop signs by ADDING more that are unenforceable?
Ed Black
Apr 15, 2008 10:23:00 PM
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There is an interesting Legal Advisory Opinion on the issue of the PB County Commission's authority to install enforceable traffic control devices on various types of roads in the County. It is not clear to me that they have any authority to do so on private roads whatsoever. You read the reference and be the judge:
http://myfloridalegal.com/ago.nsf/Opinions/25B52B35ABF0822C8525658C00605DA8
Dave
Tuesday, April 15, 2008
TRAFFIC CONTROL IN CV; IS ANY OF IT "LEGAL"
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22 comments:
"You", of course, realize there ARE 'for the public good', 'disorderly conduct' and 'reckless driving' statutes - WHICH ARE ENFORCEABLE !!!
Hi Capt. John,
What I am trying to do here is raise the question of how we might proceed to have Legislative change to permit the Sheriff's Dept. to legally enforce Traffic Laws everywhere in the Village.
If we continue under the absurd concept that we are some sort of encapsulated private enclave, immune to the legal reach of County administrative statute, we will continue to experience the effect of our Resident scofflaws who pass, speed, turn and fail to stop at Stop signs everywhere in the Village.
Dave
The height of the stop sign is also an issue. I believe the lowest portion of the stop sign must be at least 6 feet high from the ground. This criteria is not met by many stop signs in the Village.
It would be a good beginning if COPS, our own buses and ranger car observed stops, speeds and signals.
Unfortunately, placing more unenforceable Stop signs at any height is only making this matter WORSE!
What should occur is the “powers that represent both sides” should meet to evaluate how we Residents may better benefit from a cooperative effort to CHANGE the “Status Quo”.
UCO continues to proceed as a master Association, requiring Channel 63 on TV’s at the Hastings clubhouse, at the Presidents whim, and placing Stop signs to comfort supporters of his reelection.
Ignoring the Insurance Deductible “reinsurance” offered by WPRF to protect Residents, just to keep smaller monthly payments so his reelection would be assured.
UCO is even considering extending the guest pass, purchased quarterly, permitting an annual paperless Pass that would worsen the gate entry time. Those purchasing this paperless pass would EXTEND the time it takes for guests to be verified as “in the system” before entry would be permitted. Why hasn’t this been resolved, simply, by using the WPRF ID office or Ticket sales office to sell these passes, enhancing the opportunity for guests to purchase them? Why change without improving the process.
UCO should be managed by Professionals.
That’s my view, what’s yours
Ed Black
Ed in a previous comment you said the President decried 63 at Hastings. Decry means to speak forcefully against something, putting it in quotes doesn't ehlp. Please no sarcasm or double negatives, we do not know what you are saying.
Our President disparaged the choices present on the TV’s at the Hastings clubhouse, mandating WPRF change to Channel 63. I hope that made the issue clearer. The opportunity of choice by the folk using the facilities WAS ELIMINATED. The Operations Committee may operate independently but the president should not!
DAVE: I was not trying to infer you were in error; I TOTALLY agree with you. From my experience "on-the-job", the most expedient process would be a LEO "blitz" with TICKETS, TICKETS, TICKETS !!! THE Sheriff Dept. LEGALLY MAY and SHOULD enforce traffic laws, in the Village. All that need be done is to REQUEST them (possibly via our local politicians). The life "you" save, might be MINE !!!
(ps: "we" are NOT immune to State statue!)
I have found riding my bike on the main road can be hazardous. People just drive onto the main road, no looking in either direction or stopping at the stop sign. The best time to ride is around 6:30pm when they are eating dinner or locked up for the night. Mike
Dave,
Some years ago when UCO took possession of the perimeter roads a traffic engineer WAS hired to evaluate the stop sign issue BEFORE the sheriff would come in to enforce rules. While there may be others, I do know that the stop signs at the four corners were approved as we had to put them at the proper height and take down the double stop signs that were there at the time.
To my knowledge the sheriff has an arrangement with Century Village to patrol and enforce. I would also assume that the sheriff knowns what they can enforce and what they cannot as they have been giving out lots of tickets when they do patrol.
I have never seen a sheriff on patrol in village, do they hide?
Hi Larry,
I am endlessly amazed at what folks "Know" here in CV.
Mark Twain said:
"It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so."
Please provide us with a reference to the Resolution of the Palm Beach County Commission that adopted any road in CV, thus making said road part of the County
Public streets and eligible for erection of official traffic control devices and subsequent enforcement of traffic regulations by the Sheriff's Department.
Not that I do not believe you, but lots of people in CV knew for absolutely certain that WPRF owed us $11,000,000.00 and it turned out to be "Just ain't so"
When I ask for "The evidence please" I am asking for legal proof. not; "I know for sure"
Thanks,
Dave
Dave,
I suggest that you address those questions to the following-
H. Irwin Levy who built most of Century Village West Palm and who built the perimeter roads.
Ron Tennyson Esq. who has been the attorney for UCO and possibly a previous entity for lots of years.
Rick Bradshaw- Sheriff-He should know what they can enforce and not enforce and what is the formal arrangement under which they patrol and issue citations within the village, which they do. I suggest that you also refer to the signs at both entrances that refer to the Sheriff Patrols in the village.
The records of UCO under President
Arthur Bernhardt under who's adaministration the roads were acquired.
Any records that you might find from the estate of Irv Spevack of Coventry, who spent a lot of time researching the very records you are looking for.I do know that he brought up this very matter MANY times at Executive Board and Delegate meetings.
All the minutes of all the UCO delegate meetings where the roads were discussed.
The deed from Levy, WPRF, Cenville or what ever entity transfered the roads and bridges to UCO.
Perhaps there may still be some County records on file about the roads when Century Village West Palm was being planned or built.
I know that you have a lot more knowledge on how to research this matter than I do.
In my case I do not profess to be an attorney. On this blog I only try to share whatever information I have learned during the 18 years I have been here and what I have learned and heard from the many meetings of many committees that I have served on since I came here.
I have learned one big lesson, no matter what position you have as a building officer or director, or in any position within UCO there is no way to make ALL THE PEOPLE HAPPY ALL THE TIME BY DECISIONS THAT YOU MAKE.
I do not feel that rehashing the WPRF matter will accomplish anything. The delegates voted to bring this matter to a conclusion.
It is time to write "THE END".
Hi Larry,
All that diatribe, which in the end simply proves that De-Facto you do not know!
The basic issue here is that Traffic Enforcement in CV is virtually Non-Existent", and It needs to be fixed.
Folks may be observed, virtually daily, passing on the Perimeter road across the line at high speed, they roll thru stop signs without a second thought, they cut each other off, they go the wrong way on "One-Way-Streets" and for the most part, there are no consequences, save the accidents that result.
How may towns across America of 13,000 population have not single traffic light; our two main intersections should have had traffic light installed decades ago.
How many accidents have ocurred in CV, which have been suppressed from public knowledge, due to lack of proper Traffic enforcement.
Like many of our amateur efforts, Traffic Control is just one more example of uniform incompetence in our Village and as noted above it needs fixing!
Dave
PS;
Of all the records you have named, I have indeed ammassed about 40% and the number climbs daily;
however, the travesty of out of control drivers continues unabated!
Larry Kall,
This whole thread is about traffic control. Pray tell, what does that have to do with the WPRF matter.
Please try and get the information that you pass on from a legal source, and we don't mean H.I. Levy, Tennyson, or any committee of UCO.
Anonymous 7
If anyone really wants to know, call the Palm Beach County Sheriff Traffic Enforcement Unit at 688-3675. I'm sure they are able to direct you to the correct person.
Century Village West Palm Beach IS NOT A MUNICIPALITY. We are a simple gated community like thousands of others in Florida. The fact of having a traffic light does not stop people from running stop lights.A LEGAL stop sign does not stop people from disregarding the sign.
YES we can have better traffic enforcement in the village beyond what the Sheriff now supplies for a fee for a deputy.
Forget the village just go outside the village and see all the traffic infractions by drivers on roads that have traffic control devices that are all legal.
The problem is not the stop signs, the lines on the roads, or any other traffic control device The problem is that our drivers do not pay any attention to these controls and pretty much do what they want.
Go visit other communities and you will probably hear the same complaints.Do we have drivers that should not be driving? You betcha.
Are these same drivers driving outside the village? You betcha.
Could a plan be put in place to make all the interior roads meet the same standards as the perimeter roads? You betcha. The cost to do this? MUCHO DOLLARS. Will our residents pay to have this done and to get better enforcement? Not likely.
Forget about researching past history and look for what might have been. Start fresh with new plans and ideas.
Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, everything cost money.How much is a life worth ? Better yet, how much is your life worth ??
Because other communities have the same complaint, what does that mean ??
This village is much too big to guided and directed by amateurs.
anonymous 7
We all can come to a resolution
by all at first to acknowledge that
traffic signs are put up to control
order, and is the visual means to
maintain an orderly flow to reach
a destination! At a crossroad here
in CV we have (4) way Stop Signs,
throughout the Village we have
a (T) intersection etc. which also
serve a purpose to have cars stop before entering the main road!
So it seems we have to be driver's
of courtesy to other drivers and
walker's! I stated several lines
back" destination", the sign I
do not agree with is the one put
up that states DEAD END on it!!!!
SO let the C in CV mean Courtesy,
and constructive instead of Complaint!
I don't agree with is the sign that
letters on it is DEAD END
Many communities DO have professional management but still have lousy drivers.
If we want to spend the money we could hire the sheriff to patrol our roads on a full time basis.
Professional management does not guarantee good drivers.
to GIACOMO, one of our residents really hated our 'dead end' sign, we complained and Haskell Morin removed it. Thx Haskell
Never needed it anyway.
I read this on a blog, is it true in NY?
“Even four-way stop intersections require courtesy.
Do you know why there are no four-way stop intersections in New York City?
Because they caused too many four car collisions.”
We do have UCO people from NY running CV!
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