CVBLOGANDCHAT: Closed Committee Meetings

Sunday, June 15, 2008

Closed Committee Meetings

WHAT'S NEXT, BOOK BURNING??????????????

42 comments:

Anonymous said...: Before everybody goes off half baked. Where in the UCO By Laws does it say the committee meetings are OPEN.; Jun 15, 2008, 4:38:00 PM
Anonymous said...: There is little chance the books will be burned as they are being stolen from our library at the clubhouse.; Jun 15, 2008, 4:43:00 PM
Mike said...: I WAS THINKING MORE OF WARRANTLESS UNIT SEACHES BY UCO POLICE AND THEN BOOK BURNING. BBQ ISLAND IS PERFECT FOR SUCH AN EVENT.; Jun 15, 2008, 4:57:00 PM
Anonymous said...: UCO BYLAWS
ARTICLE XI
H. The Sunshine Laws as promulgated by the Federal and/or State authority shall be used as a guide for any and all meetings with the following exceptions:

1. dealings with UCO’s attorney;

2. meetings of the Nominating Committee and the Ombudsman Committee;

3. meetings pertaining to investigations of prospective new unit owners/occupants, etc.;

4. issues pertaining to paid employees.
...

The Sunshine Law provides for OPEN MEETINGS and open records for all governmental agencies.
The Sunshine Law requires that 1)meetings of boards or commissions must be open to the public; 2)reasonable notice of such meetings must be given, and 3) minutes of the meeting must be taken.

In addition to listing those type of meetings specifically exempted by this "Sunshine Amendment", I believe that the original intention of this amendment was to require that all other meetings not listed permit open access to UCO Members and that each such meeting be reasonably noticed. The "...used as a guide" language employed in the drafting of this amendment has unfortunately permitted a distorted interpretation of its heretofore unambiguous meaning and original purpose.; Jun 15, 2008, 5:34:00 PM
Ed Black said...: Thank you, Randall for your take on this extrordinary issue.

The original view was to allow Owners to take part in UCO's function, at the very basic level of Committee Meetings.

I believe any change should require a by-law revision to be place before the Delegate Assembly for their approval or rejection before change may occur.

Hopefully you and others on the Executive Board will agreee, this must be formally placed before the people.

Condo Owners are entitled to see how the "common element expenses" are determined, especially since the "budget" meeting is only a power point presentation where one question is asked by the Treasurer...and that is "are there any questions".
Most of those that attend, are overwhelmed by such details are unwilling to ask questions that should be explained in detail without the Treasurer's asking us that question.

All Committee proposed budget requests SHOULD be presented.

Allowing Owners to attend Committee Meetings is fair and removes the contest that any Administration is operating 'behind closed doors' or in secret.

Ed Black; Jun 15, 2008, 6:25:00 PM
Anonymous said...: Each society decides for itself the meaning of its bylaws. When the meaning is clear, however, the society, even by a unanimous vote, cannot change the meaning except by amending its bylaws. An ambiguity must exist before there is any occasion for interpretation. Apparently, after years of adhereing to the plain meaning and original intention of this amendment, it has become the subject of reinterpretation due to its newly determined ambiguity. I believe that the original interpretation is in accordance with the intention of UCO at the time the bylaw was adopted. Again, intent plays no role unless the meaning is unclear or uncertain, but where an ambiguity exists (or is determined to exist by legal counsel), A MAJORITY VOTE (of the Delegate Assembly)IS ALL THAT IS REQUIRED TO DECIDE THE QUESTION. The ambiguous or doubtful expression should then be amended as soon as practical.; Jun 16, 2008, 12:37:00 AM
LARRY KALL said...: Randall would you be kind enough to tell me which article in the UCO By Laws addresses amendments brought directly to the delegate assembly.

I do see Article XI Sub Section D but see no reference to that. The By laws I am reading were As Amended December 1, 2006.

Thanks; Jun 16, 2008, 1:30:00 PM
Anonymous said...: Larry,
Amendments cannot be brought directly to the Assembly by any method. The UCO Bylaws provide that amendments may originate from the Advisory Committee, the Officers' Committee, or from UCO Members through petition signed by 25 Members and submitted to the Advisory Committee. In any event, the amendment must be submitted through the Officers' Committee, the Executive Board, and finally, with previous notice (in the Reporter), to the Delegate Assembly and approved by at least 2/3 of the Delegates present.; Jun 16, 2008, 2:13:00 PM
bob marshall said...: Randall, enough with the legalize!
Are you saying that a part of the total bylaws that was put in place by the process of the Advisory committee,the Executive Board, the posting in "The Reporter" and then by the Delegate Assembly (Board of Directors)can be changed by declaration rather than following the process put in place?

I'd surely hope not! Let's follow the rules that are in place.; Jun 16, 2008, 2:34:00 PM
Ed Black said...: Randall

How may a body AMEND the interpretation and practice of "open Meetings” by a show of hands.

The Amendment clearly expected "open Meetings" and the practice was put into place. A show of hands is ludicrous, and certainly NO EXCUSE for the Administration wanting to REDEFINE the interpretation ABSENT the 2/3 consent of the seated Delegate Assembly.

As chair of the Advisory Committee, draft an Amendment and proceed to REFINE the language, and let’s see how it fairs through the process.

One Officer wanting to rediscover the true meaning of “Is” …sounds very “Clinton like”. Please don’t tell me that you’ve bought into this theft of power.

Your friend,

Ed Black; Jun 16, 2008, 6:10:00 PM
Anonymous said...: Bob and Ed,
Let me make myself perfectly clear. Bylaws cannot simply be changed "by a show of hands" without the necessary prerequisite notice and the committee progression of recommendations . In this case, what I propose is not to immediately change the Sunshine Amendment Bylaw, but to simply reaffirm its original meaning, as you say "by a show of hands", at the next Delegate Assembly meeting. Open meetings were never in question until recently when the original meaning of this amendment was reinterpreted by house counsel. I will reiterate: A MAJORITY VOTE OF THE DELEGATE ASSEMBLY IS ALL THAT IS REQUIRED TO DECIDE THE QUESTION. The question is whether or not our Bylaws provide for open meetings with the four exceptions. I believe that they do, and this interpretation can be easily affirmed by a majority vote at the next assembly meeting.; Jun 16, 2008, 7:19:00 PM
Anonymous said...: What we have here is a bunch of "Arm Chair Lawyers" saying things that may or not be accurate. This matter is far to important to go off half baked. What is needed is the advice of a qualified lawyer to be sure this matter is handled properly and be sure whatever changes are made are proper if indeed changes are what is wanted by our residents.Perhaps the majority of our residents could care less if they come to a committee meeting or not. Maybe no changes of any kind are necessary. Instead of a few people who are not qualified , we should leave it to the proper legal minds to straighten this matter out.

If things have to be changed lets get it right for once.; Jun 16, 2008, 7:56:00 PM
Anonymous said...: It appears that Randall is giving legal opinions that he is not qualified to do.; Jun 16, 2008, 7:58:00 PM
Anonymous said...: My statement is not a legal opinion but an excerpt from Robert's Rules of Order Newly Revised (RONR, 10th Edition, Page 570). RONR is UCO's adopted Parliamentary Authority as stated in the UCO Bylaws.

Anonymous stated "Perhaps the majority of our residents could care less if they come to a committee meeting or not." This may well be true, but I sincerely hope that a majority of our Delegates are in favor of permitting those members interested in attending committee meetings to have the right to do so.; Jun 16, 2008, 8:59:00 PM
Ken said...: We need meetings to be open by whatever means that it takes. The residents have a right to know what is going on. New ideas, and implementations of old procedures with modern ideas cannot happen otherwise.; Jun 16, 2008, 9:24:00 PM
Anonymous said...: There is a vast difference between being able to attend a meeting and finding a place to conduct these meetings where all can attend based on the number of committees that we have. I would suggest that someone put that in the equation.Even if we have open meetings there could be some question as to he operations committee which as I understand it is a WPRF committee. Would WPFR permit non members to attend?

What this matter needs is proper consideration of everything associated with the matter STARTING with the advisory committee.It would be nice if for once we do things right. As Bob Marshall has suggested follow the proper procedures.

Let the Operations Committee do its job. That is what the committee is supposed to do and I am confident that they can and will under Randall's direction. This matter is NOT going to be settled on this forum no matter how many well intentioned people comment.; Jun 16, 2008, 9:31:00 PM
Ed Black said...: I must admit, that I was unclear on Randall's view. He has emphatically stated the original intent of our by-law amendment was to REQUIRE meetings be open and remain so.
With this I heartily agree, and humbly apologize for my misinterpretation of his view, and add that the Delegate Assembly's vote (to reaffirm that the intent was clear) would be a reasonable solution to this problem!
To that end I would support the notion that if the Administration wants a change...THEY MUST propose such change via the route open to them, during which time the meetings will REMAIN open and REQUIRE THE WPRF “OPERATIONS COMMITTEE MEETINGS” TO BE CONDUCTED IN THE OPEN AS WELL.

THANK YOU RANDALL FOR THIS CLEARIFICATION.

I am pleased to see the majority of comments on this issue continue to support Open meetings, as was the intent of the Delegate Assembly when the amendment passed and that there seems to be a consensuses that any change will be the responsibility of the Administration to attempt.

This was a flawed “legal opinion” at best. Owners of Condominiums are entitled to participate in “common element expenses” and no one may restrict this under our by-laws.

Ed Black; Jun 16, 2008, 11:28:00 PM
Anonymous said...: Use the auditorium for larger meetings, and classroom C for the rest.; Jun 16, 2008, 11:30:00 PM
Anonymous said...: An informative read:

Millennium Admendment, page 6 of 32

3. COMMITTEE. A committee shall be formed by UCO......

That makes the Operations Committee a committee of UCO.; Jun 17, 2008, 6:56:00 AM
Ed Black said...: Absolutely CORRECT!!

This Committee must also be OPENED to Attendance by Owners…It too is a “common element expense”.
UCO operates with 5 Million of our expenses while administering close to 11 million of our money at the WPRF side. Move this meeting from the channel 63 room to CLASSROOM C AND open IT UP FOR OWNERS TO ATTENHD!

All meeting were meant to be open and the time has come for this administration to acknowledge “our rights”.

Ed Black; Jun 17, 2008, 8:08:00 AM
Anonymous said...: SHOW US A COPY OF THE LETTER FROM THE ATTORNEY, THAT GIVES GEORGE THE RIGHT TO DISOBEY SUNSHINE LAW.; Jun 17, 2008, 11:27:00 AM
Anonymous said...: Is not the Sunshine Law for Governmental Agencies?; Jun 17, 2008, 12:39:00 PM
Anonymous said...: As I remember the conversation what was said that the UCO attorney stated that in his opinion since UCO operates under Florida Corporate Law 617, open meetings were not required.

I do not remember anyone saying that UCO planned to close all committee meetings.

The UCO Bylaws appear to be flawed regarding open meetings and the best thing to do is revise the bylaws to clarify what "as a guide" means and convert "intent" to fact.; Jun 17, 2008, 12:47:00 PM
Anonymous said...: As I remember the conversation what was said that the UCO attorney stated that in his opinion since UCO operates under Florida Corporate Law 617, open meetings were not required.

I do not remember anyone saying that UCO planned to close all committee meetings.

The UCO Bylaws appear to be flawed regarding open meetings and the best thing to do is revise the bylaws to clarify what "as a guide" means and convert "intent" to fact.; Jun 17, 2008, 12:49:00 PM
bob marshall said...: Randall, thanks for your clarification. I thought this is what you were saying but it is so much clearer without the legalese!

Someone commented that it might be easy to say open meetings but another to find a place.

My idea would pertain to a time coming up rapidly--the UCO budget and the WPRF budgeting process.

Why not have these meetings held in the party roome set up much like the county commisoners?

For those who have not attended one of these meetings or watched each member of the committee has access to a microphone and each faces the attendees. The discussion can be heard by all and perhaps questions or comments from the floor could be entertained. If/when proper agendas are issued in a timely manner the questions could be determined before the meeting begins and be addressed in an orderly manner.

For those who are confused by this approach perhaps you might watch one of the Commissioners meeting on cable to give you a better idea of the process.

There is space to do this. There seems to be a desire to do this,
There will be a number of Finance Committee meetings and several Operations Committee meetings that lead to the formal presentation of each budget. Power point presentations sound good but in the past they were not readable from many places in the room. By following the development of these budgets by those who are inclined to have questions there should be a better understanding of what is included in each of these budgets.

Last year the UCO budget was handed out at the meeting and the Assembly was asked if there were any questions. At the Operations Committee Anita handed out a copy of the budget to everyone and then a handout that explained in detail what was included in each line item.

Obviously some line items call for more detail than others. For example a line item for water and sewer may need no extra explanation however a line item for facility maintenance may heed several lines of detail.

I could go on but I believe this is doable and should be the format. However it does come from and outside source and may not be considered.

These are my feelings regarding getting information to the unit owners.

What are yours?; Jun 17, 2008, 4:17:00 PM
LARRY KALL said...: I understand that UCO treasurer Dorothy Tetro has scheduled an open UCO budget meeting for 10 AM Wednesday September 17, 2008.; Jun 17, 2008, 6:01:00 PM
Anonymous said...: To anonymous 12:49

The latest by-law amendments are dated Dec. 1, 2006, adopted during the George Lowenstein administration. I'm sure that those by-laws were presented to the proper committees and UCO's long time attorney, Rod Tennyson, must have given his blessing before those amended by-laws were presented for a vote to the delegate assembly.I can hardly believe that UCO would present by-laws to it's Board of Directors without having the approval from Tennyson.(nothing would surprise me ) Perhaps you can explain if you remember who is doing the flip-flop.; Jun 17, 2008, 6:34:00 PM
Anonymous said...: To anonymous 12:49

The latest by-law amendments are dated Dec. 1, 2006, adopted during the George Lowenstein administration. I'm sure that those by-laws were presented to the proper committees and UCO's long time attorney, Rod Tennyson, must have given his blessing before those amended by-laws were presented for a vote to the delegate assembly.I can hardly believe that UCO would present by-laws to it's Board of Directors without having the approval from Tennyson.(nothing would surprise me ) Perhaps you can explain if you remember who is doing the flip-flop.; Jun 17, 2008, 6:34:00 PM
LARRY KALL said...: As many times that the UCO By Laws are updated there are ALWAYS matters that come up after the changes that require more changes or clarifications . That is just the way things are. What we need to do is address the problems find solutions and update the By Laws again. This will always be an on going process as it should be.; Jun 17, 2008, 7:19:00 PM
Ed Black said...: Larry
You continue to dance around the issue. You are a true politician, but don't you think it is about time for you to finally quit the “Texas two step”, and you do it so well too, and declare your view? Or are you waiting for George to give it to you?
You were elected to represent Owner's on the Executive Board. You should have expected to develop an independent view. If you are unable to fulfill your fiduciary, perhaps you should follow the lead of one who followed her principles and quit rather than work for UCO...”i will only be gone as long as george is in office”
Please try to respond directly to any view – either you are for UCO's attempted coup of power or you truly represent the ”people” and believe the only way to change course is to MANDATORILY propose the clarification that you comment on to GAIN THE PROPER support of the Delegate Assembly.

Please remember we will have elections in March and you are probably expecting to run...again? We really need your answer.....now.

Ed Black; Jun 17, 2008, 9:12:00 PM
Anonymous said...: Most of the stuff posted here us sheer nonsense.If the by-laws need updating then get it done as it certainly will not get done here.

This is a great forum for complaints but not good for much more. A lot of venting going on. Well maybe that is what this forum is for and if so it is a good thing. As far as getting anything accomplished it is a bust.; Jun 17, 2008, 10:12:00 PM
LARRY KALL said...: Ed,
I do not know how to do the Texas Two Step, The Missouri Waltz, The New York Shuffle, Century Village Electric Slide, Twist, Hully Gully,Fox Trot,Jitterbug, etc.

Therefore I avoid all of these dances. Sorry.; Jun 18, 2008, 12:24:00 PM
Anonymous said...: Having just spoken with Anita Cruz, I have been informed that WPRF will enforce the rules and policies set by UCO with regards to open Operations Committee Meetings. It is now up to the Delegate Assembly to reaffirm the original intent of the Sunshine Amendment of the UCO Bylaws. I have received her permission to quote her regarding this matter.; Jun 18, 2008, 2:38:00 PM
Anonymous said...: Hear we go again taking the advice of a non attorney on a legal matter. If we are going to address this open meetings problem let get it RIGHT and LEGAL.; Jun 18, 2008, 5:15:00 PM
Ed Black said...: Larry,

You continue top amaze me in finding a way to dodge all of your responsibility to speak on issues that the public deems worthy.

Humor has a place, but once again Mr. Executive Board member....WHERE do you stand on "open meetings"
" FOR or AGAINST "

Try to be precise and give it a ONE WORD answer - either FOR or AGAINST.

It is alright Larry, our President won't hold it against you to speak candidly to his constituents.

I hope we may discuss dancing at another time, although not with one another but with our own spouses, of course.

Your friend

Ed Black; Jun 18, 2008, 5:33:00 PM
Ed Black said...: Randall

That is excellent news. Thank you for looking into this and clearing-up any question as to the stance of the Operation Committee meetings over the WPRF Budget,

I am pleased to here that Management is clear on the concept that the Sunshine Law amendment was placed into the By-laws to
O P E N A L L Meetings save the few you previously mentioned.

Now if only our Administration will comply….or should we do a recall to make certain of compliance?

I do hope the outpouring of support for our rights to Open Meetings has finally been felt and understood by the “powers that be”, but if not….recall is our remaining course to resolution.

Ed Black; Jun 18, 2008, 5:44:00 PM
LARRY KALL said...: I have said many times that I have no problem with open meetings.; Jun 18, 2008, 9:51:00 PM
Anonymous said...: It would be the hight of folly to accept the suggestion of the Advisory Committee Chair relative to simply having the delegates vote. This is the same committee that championed the present by laws. It looks like they blew it on the open meetings matter.

The best thing would be for a licensed ATTORNEY to draw up the PROPER language and have this matter placed in the bylaws in the proper manner.; Jun 18, 2008, 10:01:00 PM
Anonymous said...: To Anonymous (10:01),
For your information, the Sunshine Amendment was passed by the Delegate Assembly long before I became involved with UCO in the capacity of Advisory Chair. Rod Tennyson reviewed my final amendment draft and approved it prior to it being presented to and approved by the Delegate Assembly of December 1st, 2006.; Jun 18, 2008, 11:19:00 PM
Anonymous said...: The by laws need to be revised to properly address the open meetings matter. The advisory committee is only an "advisory" committee and should NOT attempt to set policy on their own.; Jun 19, 2008, 7:23:00 AM
Anonymous said...: Randall you use the words MY final draft. That make this mess your doing.; Jun 19, 2008, 7:25:00 AM
Anonymous said...: To Anonymous (7:23),
I agree with your position 100%. Policy should always be determined by the governing body. The most recent amendments to the UCO Bylaws did not involve policy decisions. The amendments clarified the existing language and more importantly created consistency with Chapter 617. Many of he powers previously vested in the Executive Board were shifted to the Delegate Assembly (Board of Directors) as provided under law. We now have Bylaws which are not inconsistent with Florida Law. The next wave of revisions should involve the “setting of policy” and should reflect the will of the membership.

To Anonymous (7:25),
Ughhhh.; Jun 19, 2008, 8:20:00 AM

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Sunday, June 15, 2008

Closed Committee Meetings

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